This page presents the recorded teaching of Dr. Ida P. Rolf (1896–1979), founder of Structural Integration, in her own words. "Rolfing®" and "Rolfer®" are registered trademarks of the Dr. Ida Rolf Institute. This archive is independently maintained for educational purposes and is not affiliated with the Dr. Ida Rolf Institute.

Ida Rolf in Her Own Words · Topics

Ida Rolf on Bill Schultz and the perineometer

Bill Schutz appears in Ida's late-career transcripts as a colleague who pushed her to be more precise about the muscles she was actually changing. He was the Esalen-era encounter-group leader who absorbed her teaching, argued with her about anatomy, and — by her own account in the 1976 advanced class — was the kind of man she expected would eventually run "adequate and adequately documented tests" of the claims she could only gesture toward. The perineometer, a small pressure-bulb instrument developed by the Los Angeles gynecologist Arnold Kegel in the 1940s, was one of those instruments. It measured the contractile tone of the pubococcygeus, the muscle Ida came to regard as the operative structure of the pelvic floor. This article assembles what she said in her advanced classes about Schutz, about Kegel, about the perineometer in the room, and about the larger question those tools were meant to answer: what holds the contents of the pelvis up, and how does Structural Integration change it.

A colleague who argued with her about anatomy

Bill Schutz was one of the Esalen circle who took Ida's classes in the late 1960s and early 1970s and then carried what he had learned back into his own work in group process and body-oriented psychology. Unlike Fritz Perls, who became the public evangelist of the work at Esalen, Schutz was a more technical interlocutor — somebody who asked Ida questions about anatomy and method and was willing to disagree with her about what the hands were actually doing. In her 1975 Boulder advanced class, while walking the students through the logic of the second hour, Ida paused to remember an argument she had had with Schutz about a basic point: in which direction does a practitioner work a muscle in order to lengthen it? The argument is small but characteristic. Schutz wanted the obvious answer; Ida insisted on the counterintuitive one. The exchange survives in the transcript as a glimpse of how Ida thought about her colleagues — as people who had to be argued into seeing what she was seeing.

"I remember what a time I had with Bill Schutz who insisted on believing that you lengthen a muscle by going along it and lengthen it, but you don't. You must when you lengthen a muscle by going across it, etcetera, etcetera. But those are tricks within this single simple minded notion of what you wanna do with that body in order to get it balanced within the gravitational field. And those of you that remember your physics, remember that it is a question of getting the moment of rotation retired zero or as near zero as you can make it. And you can only do that by getting this ready for alignment."

Ida, in the 1975 Boulder class, recalls the argument with Schutz over how to lengthen a muscle:

It establishes Schutz as a peer who pressed Ida on technical points and locates one of her counterintuitive teaching rules in a remembered conversation.1

The argument matters because it captures the texture of Ida's classroom relationships in those years. She was not surrounded by acolytes who absorbed her teaching whole. She was surrounded by people like Schutz and Perls and Valerie Hunt and the orthopedic surgeons she sometimes invited in — people with their own training who tested her claims against what they already knew. Schutz's specific contribution to her thinking, as the transcripts show it, was to keep pressing her about mechanism. If the work was lengthening the back, by what means? If the work was changing the pelvic floor, where exactly was the change, and how could it be measured? These were the questions that, by the mid-1970s, Ida was actively wishing somebody would design the studies to answer.

"And she just kept on doing it. And put unfortunately, she's a little bit more brilliant than the rest of us. She just Ida what Ida did is what she's trying to teach how to do, and that is that you have to stay within your your trade. You have to make structural integration in your life. She integrated her life towards understanding structural integration. And she still does that. And she's still Her body is still her her whole being is integrated towards into structural integration. Being structurally integrated herself, structurally integrating us, the guild, the teaching process, and people per se."

A senior practitioner in the 1975 Boulder class describes how Ida arrived at the recipe by watching, an observation that helps locate Schutz's role:

Frames Ida's method as observational and patient, which clarifies what kind of contribution a colleague like Schutz — willing to run documented tests — could make to a body of teaching built largely on watching.2

Kegel, the perineometer, and the muscle that controls the floor

The perineometer was the invention of Arnold Kegel, a Los Angeles gynecologist who in the 1940s had set himself the problem of postpartum incontinence. Kegel's discovery, as Ida tells it in the public-tape series, was that the controlling muscle was not where the standard anatomy textbooks had looked. The pubococcygeus — a thin sling of muscle running from the pubic bone to the coccyx — was so fine that on cadaver dissection it collapsed and was easy to miss. Kegel found it functionally rather than anatomically, by measuring the pressure a woman could generate by squeezing. The perineometer was the bulb-and-gauge instrument he used to make that pressure visible. The exercises he prescribed — what we now call Kegel exercises — were designed to rebuild the tone of that single sling. Ida absorbed Kegel's discovery wholesale and made it central to her teaching about the fourth, fifth, and sixth hours, the three hours she identified as the pelvic-floor sequence.

"When the pubococcygeus is balanced, then you get the kind of balancing of forces, of physiological forces within that body, which enables this to happen, and it doesn't rest. Now the story of how this has been developed in the medical concept is an interesting one. And isn't it doesn't have a very long history. There was a man who still is, though he's pretty elderly at this point. His name is Cagle, and he works in Los Angeles. And he got concerned about the problem of incontinence in women, particularly after childbirth. And he started in trying to find out what it was and why it was. And the thing that threw him was the fact that in trying to do the sections on cadavers, he couldn't find any muscle which would control as he could see it the physiological function of the bladder."

Ida, in a public tape, recounts how Kegel arrived at the pubococcygeus:

Names Kegel directly, gives the historical origin of the perineometer's underlying anatomy, and explains why the muscle had been missed.3

Ida's adoption of Kegel was not casual. She read his work carefully, she corresponded with his successors, and she insisted that her advanced students study the diagrams in the marriage-counseling book that Kegel and his collaborator Deutsch had produced. The reason was that Kegel had given her something rare: a piece of medical-anatomical research that confirmed, in measurable terms, what she had been claiming about the pelvic floor on the basis of palpation alone. The pubococcygeus was the muscle whose tone determined whether the contents of the pelvis hung properly or sagged. Its position was, in turn, determined by the bones it attached to — the pubes in front, the coccyx behind — and by the muscles that pulled on those bones. This is why, in Ida's teaching, you could not work the pelvic floor by working the pelvic floor. You had to work the legs and the lower spine, and the floor would reorganize behind your hands.

"Now I urgently request I was almost saying that every member of this class looks into those Deutsch books and studies those two diagrams. They are very important, very important in terms of understanding the function of the floor of the pelvis. Sadly enough, Doctor. Cagle has left us after the fashion of people. There is a man who, a colored physician, a black physician, in Los Angeles, who was his assistant, who was still at work there. But the idea has largely lost its steam. It is still a good idea and it is a very good idea historically for you people to look at to evaluate your own techniques. Because what are you depending on to raise those pelvic contents? Hap stones with spitting steam? You are depending on the relation of the muscles of the leg."

Ida tells her 1976 advanced class about Kegel's Egyptian source and what the perineometer was really measuring:

Shows how Ida historicized Kegel's discovery and how she repositioned incontinence as a symptom of pelvic-floor tone rather than a bladder problem.4

The Kegel machine in the room

The perineometer itself made physical appearances in Ida's advanced classes. She referred to it variously as "the Kegel machine" or simply by its formal name, and in the 1976 Boulder class she asked openly whether someone had brought one in for the morning's teaching. The exchange is striking partly because it shows how casually Ida moved between abstract structural argument and the question of whether the instrument was physically present in the room. She wanted her advanced students to handle it, to see what it measured, and to understand that the number on the gauge was a function of muscle tone they could affect with their hands. The machine was an expensive piece of equipment — by the mid-1970s it was selling, she said, for around three thousand dollars — and her wish that more of her students would have access to it was bound up with her standing complaint that Structural Integration had no money for the research it deserved.

"I thought that I thought that probably that little thing was now mounted on the big little thing so that it was impressive. Selling for $3,000? Yes. I mean, there's a perineometers. Yes. I know that. Kegel machine. That's just my name. Oh, that's your name for it. That thought that was the the name that they had up at Vallejo. And there are other names for this machine, but I won't tell you. I know. We're not in polite. We're a very polite society Don't mention anything that is polite. Somebody have something to confirm? There's some a paper that he wrote about the exercise exercise and then confidence in the stress."

Ida, in a public tape, asks for the perineometer to be produced in the room:

Shows the instrument as an object in the teaching space and clarifies what Ida actually called it.5

The perineometer measured one thing: the pressure a person could generate by contracting the pubococcygeus. Ida's interest was in what that number reflected. In her reading, a low number indicated a pelvic floor whose attachments — the rami in front, the coccyx and sacrotuberous ligaments behind — were not in their right positions. You could not raise the number by asking the person to squeeze harder. You could raise it by reorganizing the bony architecture the muscle attached to. That, in her view, was what Structural Integration did, and it was the kind of claim she wanted somebody with research credentials to test.

"I'd like to add something about the, you know, just in case anyone ever experiments on rolting the fluidity hubs. I don't have a lot of data, so don't make the practice of asking people about this, but I have had a couple of people tell me about things that have happened. And one lady who had incontinence, had to pee a lot, to get up at least once an hour, she couldn't hold it, I was hoping that Rolfing would cure that, and I didn't do anything"

Ida, in the 1976 advanced class, opens the door for somebody to study the question:

Captures her standing invitation — and frustration — about pelvic-floor measurement research that her organization had never had the resources to pursue.6

Schutz as the kind of researcher she was waiting for

The single most direct statement Ida made about Schutz in connection with the perineometer comes at the end of her 1976 advanced-class lecture on Kegel and the pelvic floor. She had been walking her students through the anatomy, through the history, through the diagrams in the Kegel and Deutsch book, and through the specific structures — the rami, the obturator internus fascia, the sacrotuberous ligaments — that her practitioners needed to reach in order to change the floor's tone. The teaching was meticulous and it was also somewhat frustrated. She had laid out the problem clearly enough that, in her view, the research should already have been done. And then she named Schutz as somebody who had at least begun to take it on.

"Now somewhere among all of you people sooner or later, there will be somebody as a matter of fact, somebody did. It was Bill Schutz. There will be somebody coming in who will be very much interested in this problem and will run adequate and adequately documented tests of this whole situation."

Ida, in the 1976 advanced class, names Schutz directly:

The only passage in the available transcripts where Ida explicitly identifies Bill Schutz as having taken up the perineometer research question.7

The naming is matter-of-fact. She does not describe Schutz's study design, she does not report his results, and she does not say where his work was published. What she does is tell her senior students that he is the kind of person who will eventually do the research properly, and she warns them, in the same breath, against rushing out to do it themselves without his temperament for documentation. The implicit message is that the perineometer is not a parlor instrument. It is a piece of laboratory equipment, and whoever takes up the question has to do it with the discipline of an actual study.

"One of our attempts at validation is going on in the laboratory of UCLA right now, and is stopping right now. And I think that later Doctor. Hunt may offer some of you the opportunities of being models in there, if you care to see her later on. This validation is going on under Doctor. Hunt's direction, and as I know and as you know, she needs no introduction. It is noteworthy that Doctor. Hunt has herself had the personal experience of the Area 5 burgeoning, blossoming. But now, being a good scientist, she goes back to Area 2, the area of measurement for scientific evaluation. Up to this point, her pilot projects have seemed highly significant. We have every reason to believe that this project will lend itself to measurement. Her findings seem to be saying loud and clear that as a man approximates the vertical, that is ears over shoulders, shoulders over hips, hips over knees, knees over ankles, certain very significant changes occur in the kind of neuromuscular behavior, can and these changes can be registered and they can be recorded by electromyographic and electroencephalographic measurements. Ralfas in general are not sufficiently scientifically sophisticated to demand measurements."

Ida, in the 1974 Open Universe lecture, frames the validation problem in general terms:

Places the Schutz hope inside Ida's broader pattern of looking to credentialed researchers to validate her structural claims.8

What Ida is doing in this passage, structurally, is the same thing she did with Valerie Hunt and with the orthopedic surgeons she sometimes brought into her classes. She was acknowledging that her own role was to teach the work and to articulate the claims; the work of validation had to be done by people with research credentials and institutional access. Schutz, in 1976, was one of the people she trusted to begin to bridge that gap. The transcripts do not record whether his perineometer studies ever produced publishable results. What they record is Ida's hope that they would.

Why the pubococcygeus mattered to the whole recipe

To understand why Ida cared about the perineometer at all, you have to see how the pubococcygeus fit into her larger structural argument. The pelvic floor was not, in her teaching, just one anatomical region among many. It was the structure whose position determined whether the rest of the body could organize itself in gravity. If the floor was tilted, the contents of the pelvis dragged on it; if the contents dragged, the lumbar spine had to compensate; if the lumbars compensated, the thorax could not lift off the pelvis, and the whole ten-session sequence had nothing solid to build on. The fourth, fifth, and sixth hours of the recipe were, in her terms, three different approaches to horizontalizing the floor.

"And, basically, the key of the pelvic floor is the pubococcigeus. Now the pubococcigeus must meet according to its name run from the pubes to the coccyx and it is down there like a sling to serve as the floor of the pelvis. But on its integrity depends what's going on in the pelvic organs and the abdominal organs. And Peter was off on a bad trip when he talks about their resting on the floor of the pelvis. When they rest on the floor of the pelvis, the guy crawls in in here and begs you to do something for him. He's got such, quote, symptoms. That's where they mustn't rest. In fact, nothing must rest anywhere. Everything must be suspended somewhere."

Ida, on a public tape, lays out what the pubococcygeus does:

Gives the structural argument for why a single small muscle deserved a research instrument of its own.9

Ida's view that the organs are suspended rather than resting was idiosyncratic and she knew it. She used the perineometer evidence partly to argue against the conventional medical picture in which gravity simply pulls everything down. The Kegel data showed that contractile tone in the pubococcygeus could be measured, that it varied across individuals, that it correlated with symptom severity, and — most importantly for her — that it could be changed. If it could be changed by Kegel's exercises, she argued, it could also be changed by structural work on the bones the muscle attached to. The perineometer was, in this sense, a witness instrument: it could not measure structural change directly, but it could measure one of the consequences.

"It's not those half dozen muscles which we named the other day as being the pelvic floor. Not at all. It's the sacroiliac articulation. It's the articulation between the fifth lumbar and the sacrum. It's the articulation between the fourth lumbar and the fifth lumbar. See what I'm telling you? Just as soon as you shift any of those lumbars back on any of those lumbars, you're going to get a different relationship in that pelvic floor. Just as soon as you take on the type of athletic training which shortens and tightens the hamstrings to the exclusion of the antagonists of the hamstrings, you're going to interfere with that pelvic floor. Just assume as you do any of these habitual postures that spread the knees wide, thereby shortening the brassless and altering the hamstring relationship in there, you're going in feel that pelvic floor. So if there is a vast terror incognito in there for each and every individual about how he developed these various physical attitudes and therefore mental attitudes. And what we are doing here, of course, is to take the outermost layer of those attitudes and sort of organize them and relate them to a place where the attitudes themselves are less constricting, are less compelling than they otherwise have been. And where as a result of the lesser compulsion that is in the muscle, you can get a lesser compulsion in the mind in terms of certain attitudes. And you can begin to look around and see some other things."

Ida, on a public tape, names the articulations that actually determine pelvic-floor tone:

Establishes the bony architecture that any perineometer reading was, in Ida's view, secretly measuring.10

The fourth hour: reaching the structures Kegel could not

The fourth hour was, in Ida's late teaching, the first hour in which the practitioner's hands actually approached the pelvic floor. The first three hours had worked the periphery — the superficial fascia of the trunk, the legs, the back. The fourth hour, in her phrase, was the hour of the medial line of the body, and the medial line ended in the ramus of the pubis and the ischium, the bony arches the pubococcygeus attached to. This was where Kegel's exercises could not reach. Kegel could ask his patients to squeeze, and the perineometer would register the squeeze, but he could not change the position of the bones the muscle was anchored to. Ida's claim was that the practitioner's hands could.

"your hand on that individual. You begin to go down and take a precise look look at the precise problems involved at the immediate problems is the word I mean. The immediate, the adjacent, the contained problems of the pelvis. How to get it horizontal? And as you're working with it, do not start worrying about whether you turned off the gas in the kitchen stove before you went out this morning. Get your mind on what's going on in the floor of that pelvis. What constitutes the floor of that pelvis? Which aspect of it is pulling? Which aspect of it has to pull? What is this doing in terms of putting strain on the contents of the pelvis and on the contents of the abdomen? What is going on? Because these three hours, the fourth and the fifth and the sixth, are your key situations. This is your opportunity, and if you lose them now, you're not gonna get them back. In your fourth hour, hands are in there around that floor of that pelvis, loosening the stuff which is keeping it askew."

Ida, on a public tape, locates the fourth-hour work in the floor of the pelvis:

Names the fourth-fifth-sixth-hour sequence as the practitioner's structural answer to the same problem Kegel was measuring.11

Within the fourth hour the specific structures Ida insisted her practitioners reach were the adductor fascia along the inside of the thigh, the obturator internus along the inside wall of the pelvis, and the ligaments that connected the coccyx and sacrum to the ischial tuberosity. Each of these is, in standard anatomy, continuous with the floor of the pelvis. Releasing them changes what the floor can do. The cumulative claim — that a fourth hour properly done would alter a perineometer reading — was the claim Ida wanted Schutz, or somebody like him, to test.

"Just the fourth hour it seems to me establishes not only, and I didn't hear this exquisitely, you said that it establishes length all the way up through the body, not just through the inside of What do you think it establishes that length all the way up through the body? When releasing the tie ups at the bottom of the pelvis at the pubic ramus, you seems to allow an extension of the prevertebral. You got any idea what that actually is, Al? Well, can, I mean in terms of structure, Nobody has convinced me yet about that fourth hour as to what its real contribution is? Yeah. Well the fascia that wraps the adductors and the inside of the leg extends right up inside the pelvis and covers the What do you mean by inside the pelvis? It comes up between the rami and then blends with the fascia that covers the obturator internus and becomes part of the floor of the pelvis. So by releasing the legs you change the tone of the floor of the pelvis. You're on the way, I think. You haven't quite made it. You should've made it more now than anyone else."

Al Drucker, in the Mystery Tapes, walks through the fascial chain that runs from the adductors into the pelvic floor; Ida confirms:

Gives the anatomical chain the fourth-hour hands actually traverse, in a colleague's voice that Ida accepts on the spot.12

Drucker's reasoning was the kind of anatomical chain Ida had been teaching for years, but hearing it spoken back to her by a practitioner was confirmation that the teaching had landed. The fascia of the adductors and the fascia of the obturator internus and the fascia of the pelvic floor are continuous — what one of them does, the others register. This is the structural rationale that connects a fourth-hour intervention on the inside of the thigh to a downstream change in pubococcygeal tone, which is what the perineometer would, in principle, detect. The sequencing of the work in this hour was as deliberate as the anatomy.

"What you've done, among other things, is you've raised the chest off of the pelvis and you've lengthened the front of the body, raising the whole structure. From here, next we'll go down to the legs. Our core is to organize the pelvis in reference to gravity. So you free the pelvis from above and below. You free it above by raising the thorax off. Now we're down to free the legs on the pelvis by freeing the structures around the hip joints and then around the hamstring muscles to evaluate how where the restrictions are in Brooks, I would like to underscore certain points. You free the pelvis by working around the hip joint. This is right. In order to allow the pelvis to turn around the hip joint. But I want you to be perfectly clear in your mind that the pelvis can't turn around the hip joint if the hamstrings are too tight. This is not a separate situation. This is still a freeing around the hip joint."

Ida, on the RolfA1 public tape, describes how the practitioner frees the pelvis from above and below:

Gives the practical sequencing — thorax off the pelvis, legs free on the pelvis — within which the perineometer-relevant changes occur.13

What a measurement program would need

Ida understood the difference between an idea she could demonstrate by touch and a claim that would survive in a research literature. She made this point repeatedly in her late-career teaching, often with some impatience. The horizontality of the pelvis had been demonstrated, in measurable terms, by John Lodge and Peter Melchior using straightforward photogrammetry. But the downstream questions — blood chemistry, hormone function, urinary continence, the things the perineometer could actually quantify — had not been studied because Structural Integration had no research budget. Her standing complaint in those years was that the work she wanted done required money, and the spelling of opportunity, as she put it, was M-O-N-E-Y.

"we had to see how we could measure horizontality in the pelvis. And Peter and John Lodge and a few more of the old hands got busy looking at how you measured the horizontality of pelvis and lo and behold, they found something very significant. They found that the second that the coccyx the second segment of the coccyx in the horizontal pelvis was horizontal with the back posterior aspect Now this put Ralphie. This lifted it out of the guesswork and put it into the measurable work. Unfortunately, we have never had the wherewithal to really follow this along. A study, for example, of the extent to which this horizontality would contribute to the change of blood chemistry or physiological function or psychological function. We have never had the opportunity to do this. We have never had the money to do this. Because, oddly enough, in the year 1970 on, the way they spell opportunity is M O N E Y. And some of you better come out of some of those idealistic little corners where you live and realize that this is what you need to do this kind of investigation, to do any kind of investigation. You need either money yourself or access to the money groups which have been set up by the community like the government groups, etc. I am trying to put across to you at this moment, however, is the fact that the original looking at bodies in terms of getting data on horizontality and so forth has been done."

Ida, in 1976, reports the measurement work that had been done and names what was still missing:

Sets the resource and method context within which any perineometer research — Schutz's or anyone's — would have had to operate.14

The kind of research Ida wanted done at the perineometer was not complicated. It would have involved measuring contractile tone in a population of subjects before they entered the ten-session series, measuring it again at the end of the series, and ideally tracking it through follow-up. The instrument was reliable, the protocol was well-understood, and the population of interest — women with mild stress incontinence — was readily available. What was missing was somebody with the institutional standing and the patience to do the documentation. Schutz, by virtue of his Esalen base and his academic background in group psychology, had at least some of those resources.

"Rolfe an article written by Roy Elkins from Mayo Clinic, He stated in there the necessity of developing a posture with the pelvis horizontal and what have you, to the degree of what happens when a person attempts to hold it by contracting the gluteal muscles and the abdominal muscles. But as soon as you relax, it falls back in the other position. She wrote back to him and says they say it, but nobody has said how to do it. And doctor Rolf is the one who said how to how to do it. Do any of you know anybody who gets in there in a classroom and says how you do it? I do. Telephone and collect the only what's the name you say if you happen to come across such style. I think there's a fellow up in Martinez that probably comes near knowing that from anybody else. Well, there's this cast His name's. Fell by the name of Manel. Oh, Cheryl. Arthur McFarland. That's the guy you mentioned yesterday in the morning."

Ida, in the Mystery Tapes, comments on Mayo Clinic literature about the horizontal pelvis and what the medical world had failed to specify:

Captures the gap between medical recognition of the problem and the absence of any documented method for changing it — the gap a Schutz study could begin to close.15

The Mayo correspondence captures Ida's frustration in miniature: the medical literature recognized the problem and said nothing about the solution. She had the solution and no way to document its effects. The perineometer offered a documentary bridge, but the bridge had to be built by somebody. Her own clinical observations, which she occasionally shared with her advanced students, were anecdotal — the kind of cases that pile up in a long career but never accumulate into a publishable dataset without somebody designing the study.

"I don't have a lot of data, so don't make the practice of asking people about this, but I have had a couple of people tell me about things that have happened. And one lady who had incontinence, had to pee a lot, to get up at least once an hour, she couldn't hold it, I was hoping that Rolfing would cure that, and I didn't do anything"

Ida, in 1976, mentions her own anecdotal experience with continence improvements:

Shows what kind of clinical observation she had on her own ledger that the perineometer might have formalized.16

What the contemporaneous Hunt studies could and could not measure

While Ida was waiting for the perineometer studies, the research that was actually getting done was Valerie Hunt's electromyographic work at UCLA. Hunt was measuring different things — surface electrical activity, evoked brain potentials, the energetic fields she became increasingly interested in toward the end of her collaboration with Ida. Hunt's work captured aspects of the change Ida wanted documented, but it did not reach the specific physiological questions the perineometer was designed for. The contrast is instructive. Hunt's instruments were sensitive enough to register changes in muscle recruitment patterns and in baseline electrical activity, and she reported these changes in the 1974 Healing Arts conference talks. But pelvic-floor tone was not in her measurement set.

"detailed. But one that led me to the study, another study I will report on today, was that I found what we call baseline of bioelectric activity was increased after Rolfing, particularly when an individual or specifically, when the individual was sitting down in between active events and I could not understand this. I thought, surely we have in the past said that when the baseline of bioelectric activity goes up, the individual is more tense. However, the thing that I perceived was that once the individual started the activity, that baseline dropped to nothing, far below what it had been before. I had no explanation for this. I arrived at some, but it wasn't very good. One I said which I think will hold up is that the person was more open to the experience. And that's good. Nobody can doubt it. Since I couldn't explain it anymore, I just left it there because I was quite convinced that it was not tension. I was perfectly willing to report that it was tension, but it did not have a tension pattern as I could perceive it."

Valerie Hunt, at the 1974 Healing Arts conference, describes what her EMG protocols actually registered:

Provides the comparison case — what one rigorous researcher was measuring in 1974 — and clarifies what the perineometer would have added.17

Hunt's work and the hoped-for Schutz work were complementary rather than redundant. Hunt was measuring nervous-system change. The perineometer would have measured smooth-muscle and skeletal-muscle change in a specific anatomical region. Together they would have given Ida a multi-system picture of what the ten-session series produced. Without the perineometer studies, the pelvic-floor claim remained, in research terms, an assertion supported by anecdote and palpation.

"She's completely found new premises with which to explain or attempt to explain or deal with our situation in the gravitational field or in our environment and it gives me great pleasure to introduce Doctor. Rolf. Well, this is a great joy to be welcomed so warmly by you. Seems to me that we're going to have to do a little changing of this. Before I begin, I'd like to call your attention to a couple of, you know, problems, nuts and bolts problems. We have here, in case there will be those of you who will be curious to get more information about what I have to say, and for those people we have two pieces of literature. One is this, an introduction to structural integration written by one of our Rolfers, and the other is a flyer for a book that we have which is called What in the World is Rolfing? And this book is a compendium of the questions that people usually ask, and you may well find it helpful that abstract will give you an idea of whether you really want it. And because I have a feeling that we're going to be running out of time at the end, I've put this in at the beginning for your pleasure and information, I hope."

Valerie Hunt, at the same 1974 conference, introduces Ida and frames the research question:

Establishes the research culture around Ida in 1974 — the conferences, the introductions, the institutional setting in which a Schutz study would have lived.18

The pelvic-floor question in the wider recipe

Ida's repeated return to the pelvic-floor question throughout her advanced classes was not a topical preoccupation but a structural one. The floor was, in her view, the bottom of the trunk; everything above it depended on its position. This is why she taught the fourth, fifth, and sixth hours as a single sequence with a single goal, and why she insisted that the practitioner's hands had to reach the ligaments around the coccyx and sacrum. The perineometer would have given her a number to attach to the claim. Without that number, she had to teach the claim by demonstration and by argument, which she did relentlessly in the surviving transcripts.

"When you study the fascia of the floor of the pelvis, One thing that becomes evident is that the gluteal fascia wraps the coccyx. It's right up to the sacrum. Sacral tuberous ligament, you see that? Yeah. That's the one that I felt I was on yesterday when I went into MARC, going into the coccyx, I was sufficiently anterior to the coccyx that I could feel the The pull of those ligaments. And these vertical strands, I mean, vertical wide This is what I'm trying to make to give you all reality on, that in that fourth hour you have got to get into those ligaments that attach to the toxins and to the sacrum. Every once in a while I'll say to you people, What about its toxics? Well, I was going to get to that. What they're really saying is, I forgot about it, but you're reminding me of it. And what I'm trying to bring up to more nearly the surface of consciousness is that without that kind of an organization that you have no way of horizontalizing the pelvis. Look at it in terms of horizontalizing of the floor there and you see how this is knocked askew. You can't horizontalize the floor because the coccyx is askew."

Ida, in the Mystery Tapes, makes the case for going deep into the coccygeal ligaments:

Spells out the specific anatomical commitment her fourth-hour teaching required and frames it as scary work the practitioner has to learn to do anyway.19

Ida's teaching on this point was uncompromising. She knew that working into the coccygeal region was emotionally and physically charged for both practitioner and client, and she pressed her students to do it anyway. The reasoning was structural: if the coccyx stayed pulled forward, the floor of the pelvis stayed tilted, and the perineometer reading — and everything it stood for — would not change. This was the operational logic behind her hope that Schutz, or someone like him, would design the study that documented the effect.

"Now I would like would like a lineup. If we've got any models around here that have that are on the first fifth hour, fine. If we haven't, I would still like a what we need to do with the pelvis. We have spent hour one, hour two, hour three, hour four organizing that pelvis from different aspects, from different geometrical aspects, if you like. Have we got it organized? Let's look at the lineup and see. Up to this point, we have done very little except on the surface of the body. And when somebody is directing a question about the pelvic floor, I am sidestepping it. Do you hear me? Because in this work we start at the outside, at the periphery. The periphery of the feet and the periphery of the skin. And we work toward the center, and we work toward the horizontalization of the pelvis. These are all the people that are available for models. Where's the rest of Peter's practitioners?"

Ida, in the 1976 advanced class, refuses to discuss the pelvic floor in isolation from the recipe that approaches it:

Shows how Ida frames the pelvic floor as the endpoint of a sequence rather than a target — exactly the framing any perineometer study would have had to respect.20

Coda: an unfinished collaboration

What the transcripts leave the reader with is an unfinished thread. Bill Schutz appears in Ida's late teaching as a colleague who argued with her about technique, who carried her work into the wider culture through his own Esalen group work, and who — by Ida's report in 1976 — had begun to take up the pelvic-floor research question. The published record of Schutz's perineometer studies, if they were ever completed, has not surfaced in the archive of materials around Ida's classes. What has survived is her naming of him, her framing of the research question, and her teaching about why the question mattered. The pelvic floor was, for her, the structural bottom of the body. Kegel had shown how to measure one aspect of it. Schutz, she hoped, would show that the ten-session series changed what Kegel was measuring.

The larger lesson of this thread is about how Ida thought about validation. She did not believe that the work needed to be defended by its practitioners; she believed it needed to be tested by people with research credentials and instruments. The perineometer was a small, specific, and unusually well-developed instrument with a clear protocol and a population of interest. It was within reach. That she ended her 1976 teaching by naming Schutz as the person who had begun to reach for it, and by warning her own students not to imagine they could do the work without his discipline, tells you something about how she ranked the difficulty of the task.

"You are depending on the relation of the muscles of the leg. You are depending on the relation of the pelvic floor at the ramus. You are depending on the relation of leg musculature attached to the ramus. Now somewhere among all of you people sooner or later, there will be somebody as a matter of fact, somebody did. It was Bill Schutz. There will be somebody coming in who will be very much interested in this problem and will run adequate and adequately documented tests of this whole situation. But don't just get an idea, Oh, it's me. I'm going to do this. Because you've to be qualified for this. You've got to be well qualified."

Ida, in the 1976 advanced class, closes the perineometer discussion with a warning:

Her closing instruction to her senior students about how to relate to the research question — as something not to seize but to wait for, properly documented.21

Ida's hand-off to Schutz was, in another sense, also a hand-back to the whole arc of the recipe. The pelvic-floor change Schutz was supposed to measure would not be produced by a single hour or a single technique — it would be produced by the cumulative reorganization that began in the first hour, with the first pelvic lift, and continued through every subsequent session. The point was that any honest measurement program would have to take readings across the whole ten-session arc, because the structural foundation for a changed perineometer reading was being laid from the very beginning.

"And this is what makes it a one simple lifeblood. Okay. So what happens next? I'm having free the superficial fascia out in the trunk, both both thorax, upper part and the part that are connected to the pelvis through the legs and the large muscles posteriorly. The goal of the hour has been to reach the pelvis and do a pelvic lift to begin the the leveling of the pelvis. And I'm not sure if there's a why or what the significance is, but it seems to me that we did the neck after the pelvic lift, and I don't know whether that's just for kind of comfort and balance. Yeah. It's for comfort and balance. You can't go around holding your head out this way for an indefinite period. Uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable. I see it. It's inefficient. It isn't beautiful, and it's not good advertising."

Ida, on the RolfA3 public tape, describes the first-hour pelvic lift as the moment the lumbars and sacrum begin to give:

Ties the perineometer-relevant pelvic-floor change back to the earliest hour of the recipe — showing that the question Schutz was asked to study was woven through the whole sequence.22

See also: See also: Ida and the public-tape series, especially the RolfB3 and RolfB4 sessions, for extended teaching on the pubococcygeus, the rami, and the sacrotuberous ligaments as the structures determining pelvic-floor tone; these are the anatomical foundations Ida wanted any perineometer study to take seriously. RolfB3Side2 ▸RolfB4Side1 ▸

See also: See also: Ida's 1971-72 Mystery Tapes sessions on the floor of the pelvis and the obturator internus fascia, which spell out the fascial chain from the adductors into the pelvic basin — the chain by which fourth-hour work was supposed to reach structures the perineometer could register. 72MYS141 ▸72MYS131 ▸

See also: See also: Valerie Hunt's 1974 Healing Arts presentations on EMG and bioelectric measurement of the ten-session series, which represent the contemporaneous research program — sympathetic to Ida, well-instrumented, but measuring different variables than the perineometer would have addressed. CFHA_03 ▸CFHA_04 ▸

See also: See also: Ida's 1974 Open Universe lecture in which she frames Valerie Hunt's UCLA validation work as part of the broader project of fitting the practice into conventional scientific acceptances — the same project the hoped-for Schutz perineometer studies belonged to. UNI_102 ▸

Sources & Audio

Each source row expands to show how the chapter relates to the topic.

1 Second Hour Review and Structure various · RolfB3 — Public Tapeat 1:40

Teaching the second hour in the 1975 Boulder advanced class, Ida is explaining how a practitioner lengthens the back so that the trunk can sit balanced above the pelvis. She breaks off to remember an exchange with Bill Schutz, who had insisted on the commonsense rule — that you lengthen a muscle by working along its length. Ida's position was the opposite: you lengthen by working across the fibers. The disagreement is small but it shows how Ida used her colleagues. Schutz was articulate, anatomically literate, and willing to push back, and his pushback gave Ida occasions to state her counterintuitive rules out loud. This is one of the few moments in the transcripts where she names a specific argument with a specific colleague over a specific technique.

2 Three Primary Manifestations of Disease 1975 · Rolf Advanced Class 1975 — Boulderat 1:16

In the 1975 Boulder advanced class, a senior practitioner is explaining to the younger students how Ida arrived at the ten-session sequence. The answer, he says, is that she sat and watched bodies, and she kept on doing it. He frames her method as observational and integrated — she made Structural Integration her life and watched until she saw the sequence. The passage matters for the Bill Schutz topic because it clarifies what kind of contribution a colleague like Schutz could make. Ida's own method was patient observation; what she needed from research-oriented colleagues was the documented, replicable validation she could not produce herself. Schutz, with his academic training and his Esalen platform, was the kind of person who could in principle do that work.

3 Pubococcygeus and Kegel's Discovery various · RolfB3 — Public Tapeat 56:04

In one of the RolfB3 public tapes, Ida walks the students through the history of how the pubococcygeus came to be identified as the operative muscle of the pelvic floor. Arnold Kegel was a Los Angeles gynecologist concerned with incontinence in women after childbirth. The puzzle Kegel could not solve from cadaver dissection was that the controlling muscle seemed to disappear after death — it was so fine that the standard anatomical approach missed it. He had to find it functionally, by measuring contractile pressure in living women. The instrument he developed was the perineometer, a small pressure bulb attached to a gauge. Ida built her teaching about the fourth, fifth, and sixth hours of the recipe around Kegel's anatomical finding. This passage is the foundational reference for the entire perineometer thread in her teaching.

4 Egyptian Papyri and Dr. Kegel 1976 · Rolf Advanced Class 1976at 3:11

In the 1976 advanced class, Ida is teaching her senior students about the pelvic floor and reaches back through the medical history. Kegel, she tells them, had begun his work by going to the British Museum to read the Egyptian medical papyri, which described the same problem — pelvic organs that had fallen too low — and prescribed sitting on heated stones with steam. Kegel's modern contribution was to recognize that the issue was not the bladder but the tone of the floor of the pelvis, and to design a measurement tool, the perineometer, that could quantify that tone. Ida used this history to teach her students that incontinence is a structural symptom: the bladder works fine when the floor that supports it is in the right place. For the perineometer-and-Schutz topic, this passage establishes the clinical question the instrument was built to answer.

5 Pelvic Floor Muscle Balance various · RolfB4 — Public Tapeat 1:21

Teaching the fourth-fifth-sixth-hour sequence in one of the public-tape recordings, Ida is in the middle of explaining how the practitioner's hands have to reach the structures that determine the position of the pelvic floor. She breaks off to ask whether anyone has brought the Kegel machine in for the class. A student corrects her — the proper name is perineometer — and she accepts the correction but keeps using her own term. The exchange is brief but it tells you that the instrument was a physical presence in her advanced teaching, that it was expensive (around three thousand dollars by the mid-1970s), and that Ida wanted her students to see what it measured. For the article's topic this is a small but concrete documentary moment: the perineometer was not theoretical to Ida; it was a piece of equipment she sometimes had in front of her.

6 Egyptian Papyri and Dr. Kegel 1976 · Rolf Advanced Class 1976at 2:44

In a 1976 Boulder lecture about how the horizontality of the pelvis had been demonstrated in measurable terms by Peter and John Lodge and others, Ida turns to the question of pelvic-floor function. She tells her senior students that the original measurement work had been done — the horizontality of the pelvis was no longer just a dream in her eye — but that they had never had the money to extend it into the questions she really cared about, including how the work affected the blood chemistry, the physiology, and the urogenital function downstream of the floor. She mentions in passing that she had recently worked with a woman whose incontinence she had hoped to address through the work. The passage frames the perineometer question as research that had not yet been done and needed to be done.

7 Caution About Conducting Research 1976 · Rolf Advanced Class 1976at 5:47

After teaching her 1976 advanced class about Kegel, the perineometer, and the structures that determine pelvic-floor tone, Ida names Bill Schutz directly as the colleague who had already begun the kind of research she wanted somebody to do. The mention is brief and characteristic — she does not describe Schutz's specific study design or report his results — but she frames him as the prototype of the kind of investigator the work needed. Schutz had the temperament, the access to research subjects through his Esalen-era group work, and the willingness to design and document a study. The passage is the spine of this entire article: it is the moment when Ida links the perineometer question to a named colleague who was actually pursuing it.

8 Scientific Validation at UCLA 1974 · Open Universe Classat 10:17

In a 1974 Open Universe lecture, Ida is talking about how the work needs validation by conventional scientific measurement and announces that one such attempt is then underway in Valerie Hunt's UCLA laboratory. She emphasizes that the new technique requires fitting into conventional acceptances and that the validation work is going on under Hunt's direction. The passage gives the pattern that the Schutz hope fits into: Ida saw her own role as articulating and teaching the work, and she repeatedly looked to colleagues with research credentials and laboratory access — Hunt, the orthopedic surgeons she invited in, and the kind of researcher Schutz represented — to do the measurement studies. For the perineometer topic this shows that her hope for Schutz was a specific instance of a general pattern.

9 Pubococcygeus and Kegel's Discovery various · RolfB3 — Public Tapeat 53:14

On the RolfB3 public tape, Ida explains the operative anatomy of the pelvic floor to her students. The pubococcygeus, named for its attachments from the pubic bone to the coccyx, hangs like a sling underneath the pelvic basin. The integrity of this sling, in Ida's teaching, determines what happens to the pelvic and abdominal organs above it. She makes the contrarian claim — characteristic of her late-career teaching — that the organs do not rest on the floor at all; they are suspended within a field of forces. When the floor's tone fails, the contents come down through it, and the person arrives in a clinician's office complaining of symptoms. The passage clarifies why the pubococcygeus was, for Ida, the single muscle most worth measuring.

10 Return to Pelvic Floor Determinants various · RolfB4 — Public Tapeat 58:46

On the RolfB4 public tape, Ida pushes back against the assumption that the pelvic floor is determined by the muscles named in the standard anatomy. She insists that the operative variables are the articulations above and below — the sacroiliac joint, the joint between the fifth lumbar and the sacrum, the joint between the fourth and fifth lumbars — together with the habitual postures and athletic patterns that shorten the hamstrings, alter the adductor relationship, and widen the knees. Each of these variables, she says, will interfere with the pelvic floor. The passage matters for this article because it explains what the perineometer was, in her view, actually measuring. A low reading was not a problem of the floor itself; it was a problem of the architecture the floor hung from.

11 Pelvic Floor Muscle Balance various · RolfB4 — Public Tapeat 0:00

In a public-tape teaching session, Ida is walking her advanced students through the fourth, fifth, and sixth hours as the pelvic-floor sequence of the recipe. She instructs them to keep their attention on what is actually preventing horizontality — which structures are pulling the floor askew, which articulations are restricted, what is the immediate cause of the asymmetry. She frames these three hours as the key opportunity in the entire ten-session series: if the practitioner loses them, the work after them has nothing to build on. The passage tells the reader why the perineometer mattered to Ida — these were the hours that should, in her view, register on Kegel's gauge.

12 Sixth Hour and Establishing Poles 1971-72 · Mystery Tapes — CD1at 1:29

In a Mystery Tapes session from the early 1970s, the practitioner Al Drucker is reasoning out loud about what the fourth hour actually accomplishes. He traces the fascia that wraps the adductors of the thigh up through the rami of the pubis and into the pelvic basin, where it blends with the fascia covering the obturator internus and becomes part of the floor of the pelvis. Ida tells him he is on the way. The passage is unusual because it shows Ida accepting a student's anatomical reasoning rather than supplying it herself. For the perineometer topic it matters because it spells out the fascial bridge by which work done on the inside of the thigh could plausibly register as a change in pubococcygeal tone.

13 First Hour Technique: Chest and Ribs various · RolfA1 — Public Tapeat 50:14

On the RolfA1 public tape, Ida is walking through the early hours of the recipe and arrives at the question of how the practitioner reaches the pelvis. She names the dual approach: free the pelvis from above by raising the thorax off it, and free it from below by working the structures around the hip joints and the hamstrings. She underscores that working around the hip joint cannot be separated from working the hamstrings — the pelvis cannot turn around the head of the femur if the hamstrings are tight. The passage gives the operational sequencing that any perineometer-based study would have had to map onto: the floor's tone changes only when the architecture above and below it has been reorganized first. For the topic, this is the practical mechanism by which Schutz's hoped-for measurements would have been generated.

14 Consequences of Dropped Uterus 1976 · Rolf Advanced Class 1976at 0:00

Teaching the 1976 Boulder advanced class, Ida tells her senior students about the first real measurement work the organization had done. Peter Melchior, John Lodge, and other older practitioners had gone after the question of how horizontality of the pelvis could be made quantifiable, and they had found a good landmark: the second segment of the coccyx in a properly horizontalized pelvis sits level with the posterior aspect. This was the moment, she says, that lifted the work out of guesswork. But the follow-on studies she had wanted — how horizontality changed blood chemistry, physiological function, psychological function — had never been funded. The passage frames the structural problem that the perineometer would have helped solve, and explains why she wanted somebody like Schutz to do it.

15 Horizontal Plane and Client Awareness 1971-72 · Mystery Tapes — CD2at 20:47

In a Mystery Tapes session from the early 1970s, Ida tells the class about a paper she had received from a Mayo Clinic physician about the necessity of a horizontal pelvis and the consequences of trying to hold it through muscular effort alone. She had written back to the physician pointing out that the medical literature said it but did not say how to do it. The passage is one of her clearest statements that the medical world had recognized the structural question without supplying any method or measurement. For the Bill Schutz topic this gap is precisely what Ida hoped a credentialed researcher would close: the medical world acknowledged the problem of the pelvic floor and the pelvis, but only Structural Integration had a method, and only the perineometer could begin to document what the method did.

16 Egyptian Papyri and Dr. Kegel 1976 · Rolf Advanced Class 1976at 2:52

Near the end of her 1976 lecture on pelvic-floor measurement, Ida tells her advanced students that she has some anecdotal data — not enough to publish — about urinary function in women who had been through the ten-session series. She mentions a particular woman with severe incontinence who had to relieve herself at least once an hour, day and night, and whom Ida had hoped the work would help. The anecdote is offered as the kind of case the perineometer could have documented, had somebody designed the study. For the perineometer-and-Schutz topic this is the missing-data gap that her colleagues' research was, in principle, supposed to fill.

17 Personal Introduction to Rolfing 1974 · Healing Arts — Rolf Adv 1974at 0:00

At the 1974 Healing Arts conference in Pasadena, the UCLA electromyographer Valerie Hunt reports the results of her early study of bioelectric changes in subjects who had received the ten-session series. The baseline of bioelectric activity went up after the work, which she initially read as a sign of tension, but the activity dropped to near zero during voluntary movement, which contradicted the tension reading. She settled on the interpretation that the subjects were more open to experience. The passage is included here because it shows what kind of research Ida's circle was actually publishing in the mid-1970s — and what gaps remained. Pelvic-floor tone, the specific variable the perineometer measured, was not on Hunt's instrument list. For the Schutz-and-perineometer topic, Hunt's work is the comparison point.

18 Introductions of Hunt and Rolf 1974 · Healing Arts — Rolf Adv 1974at 1:12

Opening the 1974 Healing Arts conference, Valerie Hunt introduces Ida Rolf to an audience of researchers and clinicians. Hunt describes Ida as the central influence on her own work for the previous five years and frames Ida's contribution as the development of new premises within which to study the body in the gravitational field. The passage gives the documentary context for any perineometer research that might have been done in this period: the conferences existed, the researchers existed, the introductions were being made, and Ida was being positioned as the source of the structural claims that needed to be tested. For the Schutz topic this is the institutional setting his work would have lived in.

19 Sixth Hour and Establishing Poles 1971-72 · Mystery Tapes — CD1at 0:50

In a Mystery Tapes session, Ida is teaching her practitioners about the structures that have to be reached if the fourth hour is going to do its job. She tells them they have to get into the ligaments that connect the coccyx to the sacrum and the sacrotuberous ligament, and she acknowledges that this is frightening work for junior practitioners and for their clients. Going deep into the bottom of the pelvis is, in her phrase, the only way to organize the body — you have to stand it on its bottom. The passage matters for the perineometer-and-Schutz topic because it spells out the anatomical commitment that any quantitative study of pelvic-floor change after the work would have to register. These were not light-touch interventions.

20 Systems vs Individual Muscles 1976 · Rolf Advanced Class 1976at 24:58

In the 1976 Boulder advanced class, a student presses Ida about the pelvic floor and she pushes back. She tells the class that she is not interested in fretting about one small muscular patch, important as it may be — what she is trying to teach is the understanding of systems. She frames the twentieth century's contribution to anatomy as the move away from looking at individual units and toward looking at systems, and she tells her students they are dragging her back into nineteenth-century thinking. The fourth hour, the fifth hour, the sixth hour are organized as a sequence that brings the practitioner to the floor of the pelvis only after the surrounding architecture has been prepared. For the perineometer topic this is critical: any study that took a reading without working the whole sequence would have measured the wrong thing.

21 How Rolfing Lifts Pelvic Contents 1976 · Rolf Advanced Class 1976at 5:10

Closing her 1976 advanced-class lecture on Kegel, the perineometer, and the pelvic floor, Ida names Bill Schutz as the colleague who had begun the kind of measurement work she wanted done, and then she warns her own students against rushing into the same territory. The point is that the perineometer research had to be done by somebody with the temperament for documentation and the discipline of an actual study design. The passage closes the article's central thread: it names the colleague, it characterizes the work, and it sets the standard for what the research would have to be. For the topic this is the moment Ida hands off the question.

22 First Hour: Superficial Fascia of Trunk various · RolfA3 — Public Tapeat 1:38

On the RolfA3 public tape, Ida explains why the practitioner does the pelvic lift at the end of the first hour rather than earlier. The pelvic lift, she says, is more than just an organization of what the practitioner has freed during the hour — it usually involves a repositioning of the third, fourth, or fifth lumbar and the sacrum. The pelvis-floor sequence does not begin in the fourth hour; the foundation for it is laid in the first hour. For the perineometer topic this clarifies that any study of pre-and-post-recipe change in pubococcygeal tone would have had to take readings across the full ten-session arc, not just before and after the fourth-fifth-sixth-hour cluster. The structural reorganization that would register on the gauge begins early.

Educational archive of Dr. Ida P. Rolf's recorded teaching, 1966–1976. "Rolfing®" / "Rolfer®" are trademarks of the DIRI; independently maintained by Joel Gheiler, not affiliated with the DIRI.